[GAP] Regarding Cyril's Reply to My Rant

[Anthony S Ruocco]

First language wars have been a part of computer science education ever since there was more than one programming language.  What I have found disheartening as an educator is that it has left the relatively healthy arena of pedagogical merit to one of employment opportunities.  As a parent of a college student I am intimately aware of the importance of employment opportunities for a degree.  What bothers me is that we, as professors, are arguing how a FRESHMAN level course sets the employment opportunity for an entire curriculum!  No one ever walks into an engineering program and says 'if my kid doesn't learn mathcad here as a freshman then we are going to some other school'. Until we change that mentality then we really are faced with defending the language du jour.

As a faculty member that has tried to enforce among students that language selection is a DESIGN DECISION this statement really scares me.

*****It is easier to learn to use, and more people are using it ... blah, blah, blah*******
A language should not be chosen based on popularity (you may want to mention that if we used lines of active code as the metric of popularity we would be using COBOL)
As far as being easier to learn to use, how many of us have seen Java code with so much coded out because someone cut/pasted a piece of code which almost does the right thing, and which when tweaked with this particular call to an arbitrary library will do the exact same thing as we need to do - sort of.  By the way, if you are using this version of the OS, with these patches, then don’t forget to also down load these libraries from this SDK, and bring in just this one set of libraries for this RTE, and it runs like a champ.   If you think I am joking, then try to run some code produced by students who did great animated projects for their freshman class which focused on making sure the kids were having 'fun' in their first year course.

Tony Ruocco



-----Original Message-----
From: Riehle, Richard (CIV) [mailto:rdriehle at nps.edu] 
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 9:03 PM
To: GNAT Academic Program discussion list
Subject: Re: [GAP] Regarding Cyril's Reply to My Rant

Robert,

I would be delighted to be able to be aware of all the Ada
projects active in the DoD at present.   There is no central
list of these that I know of.  I did get a partial list of 
projects from an anonymous source about six months ago, but I
am supposed to be careful about how I use it.  

Perhaps the press of my academic duties, and the kind of scholarly
papers I am now required to read and review, has made me a bit 
more ignorant of such things than I was when I was more directly
involved with Ada on a day-to-day basis.  

There was, by the way, I very nice tribute paid to Ada in a recent
article (by Basili) in CACM.  It is no surprise to me that AdaCore
has been active and successful in placing important articles in
places where they can be of influence. 

As for publications, I am also required to publish now and then, and
whenever I do, I look for an opportunity to mention Ada in some positive
way.  

You know I will continue to support any initiative that attempts to 
promote Ada.  We are all on the same side.   I am simply letting you
know how things stand in this part of the DoD and with the DoD managers
that I meet from time to time.   Some of them are even of the impression
that Ada is now "forbidden."  Even some DoD program managers have the 
idea that the abrogation of the mandate also meant the discontinuance
of the use of Ada in favor of other languages.  This kind of
misinformation
is more perniciously widespread than might seem evident to someone who
is actively involved in the daily success of Ada.

I just walked down the hall and handed one of the Ada articles to the
on-site person for one of our major DoD systems.  He said, "Java is
it.  Java can do everything Ada can do and better.  It is easier to
learn to use, and more people are using it ... blah, blah, blah." As
long as we have this kind of attitude among decision-makers, we are
going to be fighting an uphill battle.  

Not a good way for me to end my day.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: gap-bounces at gnat.info [mailto:gap-bounces at gnat.info] On Behalf Of
Robert Dewar
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 5:46 PM
To: GNAT Academic Program discussion list
Subject: Re: [GAP] Regarding Cyril's Reply to My Rant

Riehle, Richard (CIV) wrote:

> You, Robert, have been active building support for Ada along with
> keeping
> an important company that contributes to the success of Ada.
However, 
> one or two of us, or even a dozen of us, is not sufficient.   As I
noted
> in an earlier post, we need a strategy along with an action plan that
> can
> help us move Ada further into the public's attention. 

We have been engaged in a significant campaign to increase Ada
awareness for some time, and there have been MANY very nice
Ada story placements in important places over the last year. I
am disappointed you are not more aware of them, but I do know
that many managers etc *do* see these articles and they are
important.

> mission-sensitive, involves a lot of embedded systems, and must work
as
> intended each and every time it is used or big trouble will result.
My
> comments about Ada are met with good humor, but an eventual shrug of
the
> shoulders -- "Not my concern."

As I say, many important military A&D contracts are using Ada, you
should definitely be aware of important examples for such discussions.
> 
> When I mentioned that the perception that Ada is not being widely
used,
> you suggested doing my "homework."  That is not so easy to do these
days.
> When AJPO kept a running list of projects, it was pretty easy.   Now,
even
> thosr in the DoD who ought to know, don't.   Others who do know, won't
tell.

As I say, follow the www.adacore.com site, you might want to setup an
automatic feed from our press center.

> So,
> I can only go by the funded research that I see come into this school.
> None
> of it is for Ada.  It would be great if someone were keeping a central
> list
> of projects so we could access [and verify] that list. 

Well funded research is probably the last place to look for Ada. But
so what? There was never any funded research that mentioned Visual
Basic or COBOL, but these languages were and still are used extensively.

> My interest is in resurrecting Ada as an academic subject that people
> actually want to support.   I realize it will never again be a widely
> regarded "first language."  However,  as Martin noted, it is even 
> vanishing from the USAF Academy.   The fact that someone at some
school
> is a member of GAP or individually using the language is not the same
> as having a committment from the computer science department to
actually
> include Ada as part of the curriculum.  

Generally the requirement for GAP membership is that Ada appear at some
point in the curriculum.
> 
> I will do my best to keep some aspect of Ada alive here at NPS.  I may
> even be able to get some M.S. student to do another project using Ada.
> But that is not enough.
> 
> We still need a strategy that can bring Ada back to the attention of
> those who need to know about it.  Those case history stories in
widely-read
> publications would be a great start, but who will write them?

Are you aware of the ones we have published? If not, you should be!
> 
> Thanks for your contribution to this conversation, Robert.  As noted
> above, your wisdom is always appreciated and welcome.

Well it's not just a matter of contributing to the conversation. AdaCore
has a significant marketing department, and invests significant 
resources in increasing Ada awareness. I have published more articles
this last year than in any year I was at the university, and many other
people at AdaCore have also published articles.

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